There could be a "real" Astro Boy in existence, right now?

[AprilSeven]

Well, it's a small world -- even on the Internet. Before I found this site, I somehow unearthed TezukainEnglish and BOOKMARKED your 1960's episode page!

It is to die for (if you're an Astro Boy geek like me, that is) - I especially enjoy all the comparative elements, historical nuggets, and links to even more info, as well as the reviews. My plan is to get the cd set, and the manga from Dark Horse, and start to work my way through, one episode at a time. I hope you will continue the reviews -- but hey, it's gonna take me a while to catch up!

If this is part of what you're planning for a book, I'd definitely buy it (the web is fine and it's "free" but I prefer a permanent record to read through when ever I wanted to).

And I'll be keeping you in my prayers -- have known people with CFS (MS is another debilitating "mysterious" illness) -- sometimes these things also change course radically (in a GOOD way, like my neighbor with MS - not gone but less problematic) I think some of us have developed conditions that could be the result of good things gone awry (such as preservatives/GMO's) - technology isn't perfect. I just hope the antidotes aren't being held up for fear of lawsuits, etc.

So, I'm not surprised your personality came out as Tenma - you probably know as much about Atom as he does -- rock on, Jeffbert!

[Little Brown Fox]

iGod is not a typo. It is a bot you can find online; I suggest you Google it.

Enh, no fair! Video doesn't work the way it should on this computer...

[CommanderEVE]

If one day hey could make Astro Boy, that would be the coolest thing to ever happen. :3

[TasZero]

Back on topic maybe, cause its an interesting one. I could write about it for hours but I'm not going to bore everyone with it. Two big problems. The first as jeffbert said in the second post of the topic, getting a full human shaped body that could function is the biggest step. There isn't a lot of technology currently out there that is similar to what would be required in a robot body. We might have functional robotic limbs in labs and things but there is little out there of this technology compiled into one body.

The second problem it this, what do you put in the robots head when its done. Building a "model" or robotic body for Astro wouldn't actually be very hard but making the body that is able to move, and then in turn have a computer problem that can make the body move in an intelligent way is another step altogther. We have yet to see an intelligent AI program that can respond intelligently in all scenarios. We have seen computer programs that can make robotic bodies move somewhat intelligently. These two critical things would both be need to exist individually and then compiled together into one robotic mind. On the other hand, the computer power needed to run that program likely wouldn't fit that into a robot. Luckily that problem could be solved with wireless internet technology quite easily, simply feed the orders to the robot from a powerful computer somewhere.

So, from what I've seen, the summary. Body, possible but would need refining and some sort of powerful energy source Mind, clever computer programmers need to be paid more and put in a room together for many years.

(oh and in case anyone was wondering where I went, I decided to go away from the site until I had seen the movie, which I did see about 2 weeks ago on my brand new Blu Ray player. I then eventually remembered to come back, so expect to see me around a bit)

[AprilSeven]

Glad to meet other people who think about these things, too!

You make totally valid points, as did Jeffbert. I just have this inexplicable, underlying feeling that we may be closer to "something" like an Astro Boy than what we're led to believe. I think the technology used shifts from what you and Jeffbert describe to involve other areas of science that Tezuka didn't factor into his universe: our understanding of the human genome and ability to clone and genetically modify living organisms.

To my thinking -- if Tezuka were alive today, I truly believe he would have re-engineered Astro Boy to be a kind of "crossover" being. In the original story there was no plucking of DNA from Toby to give Astro Boy a personality and lifetime of memories (the memory part is pseudo-science, of course). I think a "robot" could conceivably exist with an organic "mind" (that is modified to amplify our mental abilities); bones/muscles could be enhanced on demand to perform different "classes" of work (delicate or lift heavy objects); senses could be empowered to exceed our "normal" abilities (if animals have hundreds of times our sense of smell/vision/hearing we could find ways to replicate those skills through bio-engineering). "Fuel" I see coming from an ability to consume practically anything, and create energy (ala Mr. Fusion).

The value of all this to humanity would be astounding. From solutions to medical/mental health issues to protection from injury (I picture self-healing ability as a goal, instead of a robot in "parts"). It all seems to stem from the ability to manipulate things on a molecular/sub-atomic level. I was thinking of starting a thread named "If Tezuka were creating Astro Boy today -- what would he be like?"

[jeffbert]

R.U.R. was about biological robots whose brains were limited to knowing how to do things. That is, they lacked an ability to direct their own lives; they had no desires , etc. And from that, others have imagined electro mechanical robots that do have interest in life, that do love and hate, etc. But the ethical questions, while different, are still just as problematic.

I think the bio-ethics are more relevant to our current level of technology, though quite different from those of R.U.R.; the idea of cloning and using some as sources of spare parts for others is far more likely to be discussed than bio-engineering zombie slave-types. Electro-mechanical robots with human-like 'minds' and demanding = rights are still no more than science fiction, & will continue as such for the foreseeable future. But then, 100 years ago, who could have foreseen even a fraction of the things we take for granted now.

[TasZero]

Well, stepping into a biological area of thinking is a big step.

Put basically I don't see this kind of technology being at all usable for many years, I think its in a time bracket largely outside what we have been discussing until now. While this sort of technology "could" be critical in creating a perfect Astro, we don't have a Tobio to extract the DNA from, so, I personally think going in this direction before we have a walking talking robot is largely impractical. That doesn't mean I don't like the idea though, just too far from what we currently have.

The issue of AI is still important though, I think we have decided at the very least that a rudimentary body could be put together, walk, talk etc, it may not have superpowers and may need a powercord but I think that would at least be doable. The AI to put in that needs work.... a lot of work. I think once we have a working prototype then features could slowly be added, independant decision making, personality, emotions etc. These things would likely come later, when programmers had something to work with.

(noticed the thread that Jeffbert revived from 03, thats a long time ago, poor old thread must really have been buried.)

[The Tawashi Bus Hat]

I think it would be more likely to expect a cyborg with characteristics like Astro to be invented first than a full-out robot, mainly because we just have no means now, nor will we in the near future, to create anything as complex as his AI.

In order to create a being with AI, we would have to know how to recreate a basic intelligence capable of making any decisions a human can make by itself without any formal statistical interference. By this, I mean the intelligence would have to make the decision itself and not be programmed to do so. It may seem easy enough, but we as humans have never truly mastered this as any form of AI always has some programming governing its motive.

Sure, we can program things that seem to have complex AI, but none of them have the ability to truly chose between right and wrong through their own opinion, which is where the bus stops on the robot idea. Even if you don't go by the manga version of him seeing if people are truly good or bad, he still is able to stick to his morals when others try to interfere or change him.

With a cyborg, the intelligence and mind are already there. The body could be remade over the biological skeleton and the brain would still have control. This way, if rocket thrusters or machine gun hips were ever invented, they would merely need to be installed.

Kinda like Sherlock Holmspun in the story "The Artificial Sun" (Manga vol. 5, for those playing at home).

But even then, this will probably be all but impossible for many years.

I mean, heck - what would the SKIN be made out of? 1982 passed and I saw no one invent robot skin. xD

Hoo, I rambled.

[TasZero]

Hoo, I rambled.

Yes, you did. But thats good. You covered my point of the AI exactly. I understand how AI would have to work. Creating a fully functional mind is a huge step from just following a set of programed commands.

A kind of middle step (before the actual step idea of letting the robot have a human like mind capable of making independant decisions) would be to come up with a program that can comprehend a situation and then evaluate it based on key factors in relation to a set of values.
Determining who is the "bad guy" for example wouldn't be incredibly hard to program, a simple set of defining features, characteristics and mannorisms could be analyzed by a program and then an appropriate course of action could be taken. Such as capture or attempt to get bad guy to surrender etc

Of course, even this middle ground seems far out of reach with our current technology. I'd currently be happy with a robot which could simply walk and talk even if it could only do it in a certain number of predefined ways.

The cyborg suggestion is an interesting one, though I don't think a cyborg truely counts as a robot. Just a cyborg.
We have recently seen many body parts being replaced by robotic replacements such as limbs, eyes, etc. However putting all of this together and making the result seem more than just a human with artificial parts is also a big step. Plus the intelligence inside may be nothing like the Astro everyone wants.

Interesting none the less either way.

[AprilSeven]

While not a "see, I told you so..." I just got a definite confirmation of my AI "hunch" from my uncle (another uber geek at IBM). Told him about our thread over here (he used to watch Astro Boy too) and says they've shifted the focus of creating artificial intelligence away from the manner in which computers "think" (binary). They are also forgoing the system they had been developing ("Base 10") to a form that supposedly more closely emulates how WE think (not everything is a 1 or 0; information can shift between - or be both - is that "fuzzy logic?") -- he's not involved with it directly (darn) - but what is "known" is that the physiological structure of the "brain" and the manner in which it learns is significantly different from what has come before.

It's interesting to discuss about what could - and probably wouldn't ever - come into existence related to the fictional Astro Boy, but I'm completely convinced the value of development of artificial intelligence and advanced, humanoid robotics. Only by unfettered imagination and the desire to achieve the "impossible" do we move forward. I hope I do get to see an Astro Boy in my lifetime!